Consolidated List of Popular Cleaning/Lube Products

Because of the success of the 'Compatible Ammo' discussion, I was requested to create a similar master discussion for Cleaning Agents/Lube Products.  This will minimize multiple threads and create a library of MUST READ discussions for any future newbies to the Boberg world.

Please note that the Boberg XR9 system is unique and requires different cleaning procedures - see the other discussions for more detailed info on cleaning procedures as this discussion focuses on cleaning products (but pay special attention to the area on the slide around the tongs).  The biggest difference with the Boberg system is the factory recommendation to use a molybdenum based anti-seize grease for the unlock block area.  This would be in addition to any CLP or solvent/lube combo that you choose.

 

Cleaning and lube products are constantly being improved and new discoveries (or experiences) can change the recommendations of what to use.  Just because "Brand X" lube is currently used by the factory doesn't mean that this will be used forever.  Feel free to check back periodically to see if there are any changes.

 

There are several hundred different brands of products on the market.  Just because the product is not on the list doesn't mean that you can't use it.  We are simply trying to keep the list manageable and useful.  To that end, if you have some obscure product that you use but is impossible to find, please don't ask for it to be put on the list.  This list is to help people with popular, easy to find products that work well with our Bobergs.  If a common product is used successfully by a lot of people but is missing from the list, please post it in this discussion and when there are enough people that support the product, I'll update the list.

 

I will not be posting links on where to buy the products because prices change and stores may be out of stock (plus it would be A LOT of work for me to keep updating links).  I DO RECOMMEND that if you have found a product at a cheap price, post it up and share your find!  The benefit of having a group forum like this is to help everyone with good deals or perhaps group buys in the future.

 

If you are new to Bobergs or guns in general and do not know the unique parts and oiling points for this innovative gun, please refer to your owner's manual or the discussion on Cleaning and Lube Instructions.

 

Solvents:

Factory:

GunScrubber

 

Popular:

Break-free Powder Blast

G96

Hoppes No. 9 Solvent

Hoppes Elite Gun Cleaner

 

Oils:

Factory:

Uses CLP below

 

Popular:

Militec-1

Hoppes Elite Gun Oil

 

Moly/Graphite Anti-Seize Product (Barrel Lugs/Unlock Cam)

Factory:

LPS anti-seize Part No. #04110

 

Popular:

CRC

E.P.

Sta Lube

Sta Lube Anti-Seize Part No. SL3333

 

CLP:

Factory:

Break-free CLP

 

Popular:

EEZOX (smells good, maybe too good)

FrogLube

Slip2000 Extreme Weapons Lube

WeaponShield

 

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The above discussion is a component of what I have been saying (with much derision) about using a base grease with Tungsten Disulphide (WS2). I have been making my own. There will shortly be a WS2 grease available in the US. When I can,I  will provide a link. I have made penetration mixtures heavy in WS2, grease has been a problem.  I have also just suspended WS2 in alcohol to make a nice penetrating lubricant (hypodermic applied).  Both the materials being discussed are essentially dry film lubricants. So many greases (and most of the engine oils) have materials in them  (e.g., ZDDP) that want to bond to the surfaces. They could partially defeat the proper attachment of the WS2 or MoS2.  The MoS2 itself will tend to block the proper operation of WS2.

The WS2 action is quite similar to the MoS2. It creates a layer of material on the surfaces. Then the parts with this plating are moving over the same material, not the original surface. This provides a surface lubricant as opposed to oils and greases which are somewhat more oriented toward a fluid layer formed between the surfaces under use.

The WS2 (and to some extent the MoS2) form a permanent (or semi-permanent) coating. The WS2 has better numbers in all relevant characteristics. Including significantly slipperier. I would not recommend a single application. I would follow normal lubricating practices. As a weapon (or anything with metal to metal contact) "breaks in", more of the surface irregularities are removed and need a coating of the selected surface plating lubricant. What we think of as an incredibly smooth machined surface looks like a relief map of the Rocky Mountains under proper magnification. The removal of these surface irregularities is "the break-in".

One thing I have been trying to find out is the contribution of the anti-sieze base to the overall results. It is not really what I would call a lubricant. My question is how much the simple presence of a grease consistency substance makes on the overall performance in a Boberg firearm. Is there a hydraulic action that is important to the prevention of penning/galling?  And, if so, how well it works after the first shot, since it probably does not refill the previously battered points all that well between rounds. My guess is that only the MoS2 left on the surface is relevant to proper performance. If that is true, a dry film of MoS2, or preferable WS2, would fix the problem without the goo.

I would not think that a head on contact between two surfaces would have much benefit from a surface lubricant. At an angle; yes. But I am also not sure that a a lubricant with the viscosity of grease would have a particularly useful result in the same scenario. And oil would work in that situation if the film was renewed before the next strike. Tribilogy is hard. And I am not a purveyor. But I am an engineer that can read and research; as well as understanding fairly complex issues. My gut feeling, from a whole lot of Internet research, is that applying WS2 to the surfaces could suffice. A carrier with "excess solid lubricant" and reasonably fluid material would be helpful in refreshing the lubricant available to the contacting surfaces between events. Grease feels wrong, but possible.

I someone out there is equipped, and inclined, to do some real world testing , I can send a small amount of WS2 for you to play with. I have dry powder at about 600nm and a mixture of IF WS2 (around 60 - 80nm Buckyballs)  in a bit of engine oil. The oil mixture is thin enough to penetrate well into nooks, crannies, and sliding areas. The 600nm material comes with a bit of a caveat.  I am told that it is not of high quality.  It may not be as pure as it should be. I have used it for some applications, without seeing any problems. YMMV.

Also consider that this is not likely to be an "ultimate" solution. Kind of like leaded gas. Technology moves on. There are materials under investigation that provide even better results. But are even harder to get you hands on; or simply don't have a sufficient base of research/testing to make one leap to using them. These are the "Snake Oils" of the industry. The problem people have in this time frame are a real impediment to technology acceptance. This is seriously aggravated by providers that announce new materials (not just lubricants) that have miraculous properties, without providing a widely credible testing basis. We sort of need to adjust to this. The work with nano-scale materials it creating stuff that truly appears to be magic. Things that simply did nt exist in nature as we knew it and now being created in labs. And they are so much like the proverbial "Snake Oil" they engender a refusal to believe reflex in out minds. Developers are now dealing with quantum level phenomenon within the atomic structures of man-made materials.  You grandchildren will see them as regular stuff. We will see them as magic.

How much Moe S Times Two can you infuse into a metal finish?

I am really appreciating the informative nature of the discussion here!

alternety mentions:

"What we think of as an incredibly smooth machined surface looks like a relief map of the Rocky Mountains under proper magnification. The removal of these surface irregularities is "the break-in".

Which brings up a question I have been wondering about. Has anybody tried or even considered the idea of adding a small amount of the finest abrasive (jeweler's rouge, I assume) into the lubricants in selected sliding surfaces for maybe 20-50 rounds or so to improve the efficiency or end result of the break-in period. Could this give us a mirror polish on sliding surfaces such as the unlock block without changing any measurable dimensions or tolerances? Perhaps hand cycling the action would be better? Would some hand polishing with jewelers' rouge be a good idea or a bad idea?



Major Johnson said:


Which brings up a question I have been wondering about. Has anybody tried or even considered the idea of adding a small amount of the finest abrasive (jeweler's rouge, I assume) into the lubricants in selected sliding surfaces for maybe 20-50 rounds or so to improve the efficiency or end result of the break-in period. Could this give us a mirror polish on sliding surfaces such as the unlock block without changing any measurable dimensions or tolerances? Perhaps hand cycling the action would be better? Would some hand polishing with jewelers' rouge be a good idea or a bad idea?

An interesting idea. With the fitting of metal parts to metal parts, this is like lapping or honing and it's fairly common; for example valves in an internal combustion engine are lapped to the valve seats to get a better "seal". But there's really two mechanisms in play.

If you think about the "peak of a mountain" one thing that can happen is the peak gets cut or broken off (which would be the case if an abrasive was added to a lubricant) but the other thing that will happen is the peak will get mushroomed over and beaten down, smearing some of the metal of the peak into the area surrounding the old peak (looking at a polished surface under high magnification shows this smearing effect). "Breaking in" is actually a combination of these two mechanisms - some peaks are sheared away and others are smeared over - the result of very high forces that exceed the elastic limit of even very hard steels. The result is a surface where no forces exceed the elastic limit of the steel and that's what we really want - we don't want to cut all the high points away - we want some of them to mushroom and smear into the valleys and increase the surface area which also reduces the stresses by spreading them over a larger area.

It seems to me the larger issue ends up being heat reduction (slippery does prevent) so does grease (goop) add to to mass that ends up moving the heat (moving means cooling). Or maybe vents cut into the slide to allow heat to exhaust better or water cooling!

I don't know the particle size of rouge. But I suspect it is quite large in comparison to the IF version of WS2. During use the Buckyballs will delaminate and make even smaller particles to fill in spaces on the surface. The same thing will occur with 2 dimensional sheets. There is some discussion of sheets and Buckyballs being pretty similar in performance.

It is still common practice to polish some of the more critical components (e.g., trigger group). I am really not sure if I would polish rather than just adding WS2. I don't know what the surface looks like after polishing. It will still probably look like the Rockies under appropriate magnification.  And you want the WS2 to fill the nooks and crannies. Polishing would reduce some of the mountain tips, but will it leave a lot of debris in the valleys?

You can surface treat with the powder form with a fairly moderate air spray. So you can coat surfaces other than those doing the most sliding around. In the barrel, it will reduce fowling. Other places should also be easier to clean. If you use it in the barrel you may have to adjust your ammo. It is so slippery that the bullet will move down the barrel measurable quicker. Thus there is less  time for the gases to accelerate the bullet. Overall the result is less energy in the bullet. I would want to do testing with my carry ammo after treating the barrel.

Me too.  This is getting to me like a religious experience.  Choose your sect.

Major Johnson said:

I am really appreciating the informative nature of the discussion here!

alternety mentions:

"What we think of as an incredibly smooth machined surface looks like a relief map of the Rocky Mountains under proper magnification. The removal of these surface irregularities is "the break-in".

Which brings up a question I have been wondering about. Has anybody tried or even considered the idea of adding a small amount of the finest abrasive (jeweler's rouge, I assume) into the lubricants in selected sliding surfaces for maybe 20-50 rounds or so to improve the efficiency or end result of the break-in period. Could this give us a mirror polish on sliding surfaces such as the unlock block without changing any measurable dimensions or tolerances? Perhaps hand cycling the action would be better? Would some hand polishing with jewelers' rouge be a good idea or a bad idea?



alternety said:

If you use it in the barrel you may have to adjust your ammo. It is so slippery that the bullet will move down the barrel measurable quicker. Thus there is less  time for the gases to accelerate the bullet. Overall the result is less energy in the bullet. I would want to do testing with my carry ammo after treating the barrel.

It might seem counter intuitive that reducing friction between the bullet and the barrel would actually reduce velocity (and thus energy) but that's exactly what happens. Because the bullet moves easier it takes less pressure to make it move, the bullet exits the barrel before the propellant generates maximum pressure and much of that high pressure is wasted. Chamber pressure is actually reduced and velocity is lower. If disulfide compounds are used in barrels or on bullets it may be necessary to change to a faster burning propellant to regain the lost pressure and velocity. Which is interesting but a bit far afield from the central purpose of this thread.

Boberg Arms has specified the LPS All Purpose Anti-Seize to prevent galling of the unlock block which suggests that the specific problem to be solved is high pressure contact between the barrel lug and the unlock block - pressure high enough to break down a film of any oil that might normally be used and the direct metal to metal contact results in galling; disulfide materials provide a lubricating film of sufficient "strength" to avoid this.

There are potentially 3 materials that could accomplish this; graphite, molybdenum disulfide and tungsten disulfide. Graphite seems to show lower coefficients of friction up to about 100,000psi, tungsten disulfide is lower between 100,000psi and 300,000psi and molybdenum disulfide is lower over 300,000psi but I sort of question this last data and I don't know how accurate that data really is - the higher the pressure the harder it is to test. I don't know that the coefficient of friction is actually what's most important either as I believe the most important issue is the ability to prevent direct metal to metal contact that would lead to galling (due to a combination of friction and adhesion between the two metal surfaces). It seems to me that Boberg has some experience in this and found that the high molybdenum disulfide content of the specified anti-seize works, and the good news is that you can buy a lifetime supply of it for less money that one might typically spend in defense ammo for one range session.

From the biology point of view, all of the cleaning and lube products are unhealthy though popular.

Not ALL.  Try Hoppes Elite

M-pro7 cleaner and Slipstream Lube with Slipstream Grease (for unlock block and rails), M-pro7 oil for exterior.  Till Alternety comes up with some WS2.  Am using Nanolub oil additive (if ws2) on my press and manual case trimmer.  The Slipstream oil and grease are mos2 and make a notable difference in the smoothness of the action.

I just sent an email to ask what is happening with WS2 grease. I thought it would be available by now.

This is just a gut feeling, but I suspect things would be a little better if you use WS2 before Moly. Both materials make an attempt to bond to the surface, although the nano material would be somewhat better at that. Using WS2 on top of Moly, may plate some of in on top of Moly. Eventually it is not likely to hurt anything, and may never disturb the effects. That is what I did. I never used Moly on guns so it was a virgin surface with respect to bonding lubricants.

It may also be useful when you apply WS2 to use the dry film version and do some burnishing with something (cloth, etc.). One of the ways WS2 is applied is just fairly low pressure air blowing it on to the surface. It is considered a permanent lubrication in some of these instances. The only place I would see grease as being a possible necessity is where the item also needs some hydraulic properties. On sliding surfaces and non-wear surfaces, it should form a film. Repeated application will do some replenishment and build up the coating (I think).

Disclaimer: I have said this before: I am not a lubricant guy. Just a casual observer who won't let go of research if he finds something interesting.

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