I know there is at least one person on the board that's interested in this test.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/liberty-ammunition-civil-defense-li...

I'm saving my check for my XR45-S.  Should be light as a feather with a magazine full of Civil Defense. 

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Nice review.  Those light bullets penetrate better than I would have expected.  They are definitely on my list of ammo to try in the XR45.

Thanks for the link!  The Liberty ammo seems to poses several advantages for a Boberg concealed carry system. 

Light weight rounds and extremely reduced recoil is almost too good to be true. 

Low penetration can be an advantage in many situations.

Should be a winner in the XR45-S

I just have to get around to ordering some of that ammo.

Bruce, are you the guy who's doing the testing? I'm just curious as you seem to know always what you are talking about. Much respect for your expertise whether it's you testing in the videos or not.

If you are doing the testing, have you done any testing with the Liberty ammo and the XR9-S? If so I'd like to see it.

Question... In addition to my new XR9-S ONYX, I have a Kimber Pro CDP. Can that handle the liberty .45acp ammo that was tested in the above video link?

Thanks,
Norris


Yes, those are my tests Norris.  I only claim expertise in running structure testing.  Still learning all the other stuff, but I appreciate the comment.

I decided very early on that HST 124 +P was "good enough" for the XR9 S & L.  100% reliable in my pistols, decent terminal performance, and I shoot it well.  I purchased a shed load of it so I don't bother testing other stuff in these two.  Here's the most recent test results.  http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2013/09/federal-hst-9mm-p-124-gr...

Look in your Kimber manual and if it says that the CDP is ok with SAAMI standard ammo, the the Liberty 45 +P should be fine.  Always best to call Kimber and ask Customer Service if you have any doubts. 

 


Norris Freedman said:

Bruce, are you the guy who's doing the testing? I'm just curious as you seem to know always what you are talking about. Much respect for your expertise whether it's you testing in the videos or not.

If you are doing the testing, have you done any testing with the Liberty ammo and the XR9-S? If so I'd like to see it.

Question... In addition to my new XR9-S ONYX, I have a Kimber Pro CDP. Can that handle the liberty .45acp ammo that was tested in the above video link?

Thanks,
Norris

I called Kimber right after I posted to you. Yes, the Pro CDP is rated for +P.  They did recommend that I not use it as a steady diet all the time, as it is powerful and will wear out the recoil spring  and some other parts faster than normal wear and tear. But regular use for practice mixed with non +P ammo is perfectly normal usage.

I just watched your videos from the above attached link and I found it interesting that on the XR9-S and the  XR9-L the petal peel back, was significantly less as opposed from the Glock.  I am not a Glock fan, been there sold that.  Was this effect just due to velocity, or combined velocity and shorter barrel length and?  What does this really mean to us as users of the Shorty?

Does it mean that the Federal round would not cause significant internal damage, or bone breaks if shot at a human in self defense? Since there was no fragmentation, is the ammo less effective in a situation?

Using the Shorty with the Liberty Civil Defense 9mm ammo ( manufactured to fragment also) we were discussing earlier, would fragmentation occur, using any information that you are aware of from some other similar test source somewhere else?  I have watched Liberty tests from many weapons, but not with a Boberg S or L.  As I become more educated in ballistics, from many of you on this site, I am just trying to determine what ammo is going to cause the aggressor in a situation to cease their actions sooner than later with the proper placed close range shot/s, and as few shots as possible.

Some people are rather thin ( less than 16 inches from from to back, I am not one of them to be sure), if a bullet travels with high velocity and goes clean through the intended target with no fragmentation, it may not cause much damage, and forward motion may still occur from aggressor.  More rounds fired in fast succession will most likely do the trick.  Is this then a good ammo to use?  I find this very interesting.  Do ammo manufacturers ever get to use a medical cadaver to test ammunition, or an animal that is structurally similar to humans in terms of flesh, body fluid, muscle and other tissue viscosity?  I know the question is kinda gruesome, but I had to ask.

Thanks for answering if you have the time.

Norris



Bruce said:


Yes, those are my tests Norris.  I only claim expertise in running structure testing.  Still learning all the other stuff, but I appreciate the comment.

I decided very early on that HST 124 +P was "good enough" for the XR9 S & L.  100% reliable in my pistols, decent terminal performance, and I shoot it well.  I purchased a shed load of it so I don't bother testing other stuff in these two.  Here's the most recent test results.  http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2013/09/federal-hst-9mm-p-124-gr...

Look in your Kimber manual and if it says that the CDP is ok with SAAMI standard ammo, the the Liberty 45 +P should be fine.  Always best to call Kimber and ask Customer Service if you have any doubts. 

 


Norris Freedman said:

Bruce, are you the guy who's doing the testing? I'm just curious as you seem to know always what you are talking about. Much respect for your expertise whether it's you testing in the videos or not.

If you are doing the testing, have you done any testing with the Liberty ammo and the XR9-S? If so I'd like to see it.

Question... In addition to my new XR9-S ONYX, I have a Kimber Pro CDP. Can that handle the liberty .45acp ammo that was tested in the above video link?

Thanks,
Norris

Like you said, it's fun to shoot and to quote you, if I may " HAPPINESS IS A FILTHY BOBERG". 

P.S.  I SUBSCRIBED TO YOUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL. SWEET!!

Norris:

The difference in the HST expansion is velocity related.  The faster it goes, the more it expands.  More barrel length = faster velocity in the case of the HST.

I'm not a huge fan of fragmenting bullets.  I may carry them in the XR45-S, not for their ballistic superiority, but for the much lighter weight.

Based on this test with a shorter barrel, I'm confident that the Liberty would fragment from the longer barrel XR9-s.  http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2013/02/liberty-ammunition-halo-...

Finally, here's my take on ammo selection as it relates to me.  Like picking your spouse, it's a personal choice that you need to make and feel good about.  Don't blindly follow the advice of others unless they are willing to walk into court with you and aid in your defense if you should actually have to use your firearm in self defense.  http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2013/02/liberty-ammunition-halo-...

Handguns are miserable self defense tools if you are looking to "cause the aggressor in a situation to cease their actions sooner than later with the proper placed close range shot/s, and as few shots as possible."  They are better than nothing but pale in comparison to a 12 gauge or rifle. 

I can't/won't validate that traditional hollow point bullets are more or less effective than fragmenting bullets.  That's way outside of my expertise and comfort zone.  In this case I defer to the experts that put themselves in harm's way each day.  Read up on the FBI and IWBA ammo testing protocols to learn more about what's important to these folks.  Following their lead seems prudent to me.

Thanks for subscribing.

Bruce,

I saw that Arne is selling the Longer 4.2" Barrel for the shorty @ $140.00, in Onyx.  I wonder if the longer barrel would effect a draw from a pocket holster or IWB holster, would it get caught on something with that extra maybe 1/2 inch or so sticking out.  It does look pretty good though as you showed.

Did you ever hear of animal cadavers used to test ammo? On the human ones, I guess just because medical students experiment with them is not a good reason to test ammo on them. Sorry for that question.

The question about if penetration is 16", and a person is much thinner, does that mean the bullet would most likely exit?

Bruce,

I forgot to ask a question, do you make your own ballistics gelatin to proper specs, or do you purchase it as you show us in the tests? Just curious.

I'm not aware of any cadaver or carcass testing being done by the ammo makers. 

16" of gel doesn't equal 16" of person.  According to the FBI and IWBA protocols 12" to 18" of gel is simply an analog of "enough penetration" in a person of skin, fat, muscle, blood, bones, etc.  

I use Clear Ballistics gel exclusively.  It's not a perfect analog for 10% Ordnance Gel, but it's consistent from test to test and it's pretty close to Ordnance Gel. 

Buce,

I went to their website.  It's pricey stuff unless you have the cooker to melt it down and reuse it.  The imperfect is a little cheaper way to go for purposes of testing if you are on a budget and you can get a few for melting into a proper one.  I'm guessing you reuse it and build a new ones until it/they become unusable as to opaqueness. The density will remain the same, but you cannot test if you cannot see it.

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